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Could you tell us please something about your family?
I was the oldest of four children. One brother and sister passed away very young, while my youngest brother became the Sakya Trizin. My father never became head of the Sakya Lineage; he passed away in the year of the Tiger (1950), at the age of 49. My mother had passed away three years earlier, when I was 10. At that time my brother was only three years old. From then on, my aunt, our mother's older sister, looked after us. She took us to Ngor Monastery, south of Shigatse. There we met our root lama, Ngawang Lodro Shenpen Nyima or briefly Tampa Rinpochey, and we received teachings. Later, Khangsar Shabdrung Rinpochey, Ngawang Lodro Tenzin Nyingpo, came to Sakya and gave us another teaching, called the Collection of Sakhanas.
While my brother was doing his Vajrakilaya retreat, monks from Kham can to Sakya and requested Path and Fruit teachings from him. But as he was in retreat, my aunt appointed me to give the three months transmission in the Lam-Dre Ngawang Chodrak tradition. I was 18 years old.
When did you start to meditate?
When I was six, I did my first small meditations on Manjushri and Saraswati, accompanied by a teacher, not alone. Then, when I was eight, I became a nun. When I was 10, I did a one month Vajrapani retreat, also with a teacher.
At the age of 17, I received the Path and Fruit teachings, together with Sakya Trizin. After I completed a few retreats, including that of Hevajra and other deities. Then I gave the Path and Fruit transmission for the first time.
When did you come to exile?
In 1959, when I was 21, we escaped to India. I remained there from 1959 to 1971. First we went to the American Missionary Refugee camp for Tibetans in Kalimpong. I tried to learn English there, because we generally spoke Hindi. I was very shy, so I did not speak a lot of English. Since I came to Canada, I have had a lot of practice - because I have to.
In 1962, I went to Shimla and worked there with Tibetan children in the Tibetan nursery. I worked as a nurse, changing diapers, fixing beds and serving food. But after nine months I got sick, so I had to quit.
Once we arrived in India, I decided to give up my robes, In 1964, my husband's family, the Luding family, and my aunt arranged our marriage. After taking their decision they asked us, and we both agreed. Although we knew each other quite well, it was a prearranged marriage.
We had five children: four sons and a daughter. My first son was born in 1965. My daughter passed away, while three of my sons live with me in Canada. One, Shabdrung Rinpochey, was born in 1967 and now lives in India. When we came to Canada in 1971, my youngest son was just 10 months old.
Why did you decide to live in Canada?
Sakya Trizin and I had an old friend, a woman who was half French, half German. She actually decided for me. She felt that my situation, bringing up five children in India, was not so good. I thought that I was doing well, that I was very rich - but I guess she thought that I was very poor. She asked me if I wanted to go to Canada. She knew that Canadian Ambassador very well. She then talked to him, and he added my name to the list of those being considered for resettlement. We first arrived in Alberta and only later we moved to Vancouver. While my husband worked on a farm, feeding the cattle, I was working in the house, cooking the whole day and feeding the kids - a terrible experience because it never finished the whole day long.
Are there any difference between living in India and here?
It is much the same. There's no big difference. A lot of people say to me: "You lost your country, you must feel lonely and homesick." I never had the feeling of loneliness and of being homesick. I don't know why, I never had it. I never feel lonely. If you are alone, you find something to read, or you do a meditation. We Tibetans did not have television. Here, if you're lonely, you watch television. People here watch television like zombies.
Could you tell us something about your lineage, in particular the Khön lineage?
The Khön lineage originates not in our worldly realm. It comes from a heavenly realm. Three sons came to our world from that realm. While the two older brothers returned to the heavenly realm, the youngest one married the daughter of a raksha or harmful spirit. Literally, the world Khön means "against each other", or enemy. After the marriage the raksha family and the Khön family fought against each other, which is why the Khöns became known as enemies of the harmful spirits.
Sachen Kunga Nyingpo, Sonam Tsenmo, Rinchen Dakpa Gyaltsen, Sakya Pandita, Drogon Chogyal Phakpa were the first lineage holders of the Khön. Then the lineage was passed down until Wangdu Nyingpo and his four sons: Pema Dhondup Wangchuk (we call him Pitu), Kunga Richen, Ngodrup Pompa and Kunga Gyaltsen, youngest of the sons. Pitu and Kunga Gyaltsen together has on son, Dorje Rinchen, because they shared the same wife.
Dorje Rinchen became the Sakya Trizin, but did not have any children himself. He was with the Sakya government. This when the two brothers who were both fathers of Dorje Rinchen established the two houses of Sakya. The younger brother, Kunga Richen, founded the Phuntsog Phodrang, while the older brother, Pitu, instituted the Dolma Phodrang.
From Pema Dhondup Wangchuk the Dolma Phodrang lineage passed to Tashi Rinchen, Kunga Nyingpo, Tashi Trinley Rinchen, then to Kunga Rinchen who was Sakya Trizin's and my father, and then to Sakya Trizin. On the Phuntsog Phodrang side, the lineage was passed on from Kunga Rinchen to Kunga Sonma, then to Samling Chiku Wangdu, Ngawang Thudob Wangchuk, to Jigdal Dagchen Sakya, and he will pass it on to one of his five sons.
What does the bone and blood lineage mean?
We talk about these lineages only in relation to human beings. Religiously and spiritually they have no meaning. The mothers' lineage is the blood lineage, while the bone lineage refers to the father's side. In Tibet, when it came to marriage, it was important to observe the bone lineage for seven generations, and the blood-lineage for four generations. After these generations you could marry. That is the only reason.
Compared to other traditions, what is different in the Sakya-pa?
In Sakya, we talk about then two families, the Khön families. Inside these two families and lineages, there are lamas of other lineages born into. For example, my brother, Sakya Trizin, is a reincarnation of the Nyingmapa lama Abong Terton, from east Tibet. This has been recognized by Nyingmapas very clearly - there is no doubt about it. Before Abong Terton died, he told his students: "I will die this year. Next year you should go to Sakya and look for newborn babies. I will be there, and you will recognize me. But you cannot bring me back here. My duty in eastern Tibet is done, and my future task will be in central Tibet, with the people there. I will have to stay with their family. You cannot bring me back, but you can visit me." Abong Terton had three sons. When the middle son visited Sakya, he recognized his father in my brother. At that time my brother was six years old; he was reciting all kinds of prayers that he had not been taught, very much like Abong Terton.
We Sakya understood very well and do not doubt it. However our side thought he was the reincarnation of my grandfather.
In Sakya there was a Mahakala temple, facing south. It was rebuilt by my grandfather. During the restoration, he left a small skylight open in the upper southwestern corner, so that light could enter the temple. When my brother was maybe seven or eight years old, he visited the temple for the first time. Right away he asked: "What happened to the window? Where is the window? Somehow somebody closed the window", replied the old man beside him, with tears in his eyes. The old man had known my grandfather and he knew that once there was a window. That is why our side believes that Sakya Trizin is the reincarnation of my grandfather's.
Many people wonder: "How is this possible? Two people reincarnated in one person?" I think the great Nyingmapa lama, Abong Terton, was a Bodhisattva and my grandfather was also a Bodhisattva. Their minds are equal. They have different forms, but basically the Bodhisattva's essence is the same. So there are two Bodhisattvas and they can do anything. This is what I believe. That is what happened in our family.
If somebody is born into our family lineage, the former lineage of the reincarnation may be lost and these reincarnations don't get their monastery. This is because for us the family lineage is more important, it has priority. Our Khön lineage does not need reincarnations. It is always passed down from father to son.
The head of the Sakyapas alternates between the Dolma Phodrang and the Phuntsok Phodrang. The responsibility moves back and forth, changing from generation to generation. The previous Sakya Trizin was Jigdal Dagchen Rinpochey's father, and before that it was our grandfather.
Leadership of the Ngor Monastery, on the other hand, rotates among the four lamas who were heads of the four households or labrangs every three years.
Do you know how your former incarnations were?
I do not know. People say different things, in different ways. Anyhow, people say what they want to say; myself I really don't know. Somehow everybody is incarnated anyway.
Some people say that you are an emanation of Vajrayogini.
Yes, I know. A long time ago, after the five great Sakyapa teachers, one of the great Sakyapa lamas had a sister. She was a very good nun and a practitioner. She also was lineage-holder of the Path and Fruit. Her name was Jigmey Tenpai Nyima. People say she was an emanation of Vajrayogini. So, since that time, some people say that some of the daughters of the Khön family are emanations of Vajrayogini. That's what they say. So somebody heard this and said that therefore I am an emanation of Vajrayogini, but I do not think so. People can believe it if they want, that's fine, it does not matter. But, people who take Hevajra and Vajrayogini teachings from me, they have to believe in Vajradhara. Root lamas are Vajradhara. Generally, everybody has this essence of mind. The nature of the mind is presently concealed. Our defilements and the three poisons have covered this nature, so we cannot see our own mind. The Bodhisattva is present in everybody, but defilements and poisons have covered it up. Clear away those defilements and you become a Bodhisattva. Basically the Bodhisattva essence is present in everybody. Everybody has it, but you cannot see it. The same goes for saying some person is the emanation of a deity.
Why are there so few female lamas?
I don't know. I guess that this is a female problem (laughs). I really don't know. In earlier days, the Nyingmapas had a lot of female lamas, particularly in Kham. Now, after the revolution, it has changed. Otherwise, traditionally, I could not have married. Once you were born a woman in the Khön family, you would automatically become a nun. It was your choice whether you took the vows and become a nun or not, but you had to war the robes. Then you would receive empowerments like Hevajra and Chakrasamvara, and on those occasions you would take Vajrayana vows. In the Vajrayana vows there is a kind of nun's vow included. These are serious vows and therefore you could not marry.
So once you were born as a woman into the Khön family, you could not lead a worldly life?
No, you would always be learning, reciting and meditating. Some nuns were doing handicrafts like sewing, knitting and beadwork and so on. These rules were not set by the Tibetan government, but by our family.
From your point of view, why did Shugseb Jetsunma decide to reincarnate as a man?
The reason is personal. I think every human being has a different mind, and accordingly has different ideas. I think it was her idea to come back as a man. I have heard that she had a difficult life as a young girl. When she was on pilgrimage with her mother, a man robbed her and tried to rape her. Consequently, I guess she thought that being a female is hopeless. Not helpless in the mind, but in the physical body - it is more difficult to fight back, to defend yourself. That's why, I think, she wanted to come back as a man, into a more comfortable and easy life. Something like that.
I don't think she thought women are bad and so she become a man.
Are there any similarities and/or difference between the various traditions of Kachoma (Vajrayongini)?
I think in the Gelugpa the Vajrayogini practice is very similar to ours, because it comes from the Sakyas. Maybe there are different lamas with different sets of sadhanas, different ways of teaching, some of them ore detailed, but it comes from Sakya, so it is very much the same.
The Kagyupa's Vajrayogini is actually not Vajrayogini. They call it Vajrayogini nowadays, especially among Westerners, but in fact it is Vajravarahi. In Tibetan it is called Dorje Phagmo, and not Naro Kacho. Therefore, the Kagyu practice is not Vajrayogini.
Are they very different?
They are different, but both Vajravarahi and Vajrayogini, are Chakrasamvara tantric practices and originally come from Naropa. Naro Kacho means that it comes from Naropa.
His Holiness Sakya Trizin once said that he had to encourage you to teach.
Yes. In 1979, he was visiting the US, together with Dezhung Rinpochey, for the second time. During his visit he was giving a talk in New York. After the talk, there was a question/answer panel discussion. One woman asked: "Why is it that in Tibetan Buddhism all the teachers are men, and there are no women?" Then my brother said: "No, we have woman teachers too; one of them is my sister. She is hiding somewhere in Canada." That's what he said at the time. Then he came to visit me and his centre in Vancouver, He did not press me, but he just said: "If you teach in the West, it would be good." That's the only thing he said. At that time I was not teaching in the public, only privately. Some people were interested in Tibetan language, other in meditation. One or two were interested in empowerments; so I gave them small empowerments in my house. When my brother came, he asked me to look after his centres. After my brother left, I went to Saky centres in Los Angeles, Minneapolis, Boston, and New York. Since then I visiti, the Sakya centeres that my brother had set up in the West, once in a while. Whenever these centres ask me to come, I go, and most of the time I do not talk a lot, but give empowerments and instructions.
When Saky Trizing was back in India, I was invited to Australia. He told me to go there and teach. At that time, he gave me some reasons. First he said: "In Tibet as an ex-nun you would no longer teach." This is because most of the teaching are given in monasteries, by nuns and monks. "So they lay people, would have no faith in you. Only if you are a great, great, great lama, and you have a wife, would they have faith in you, but mostly they don't . Traditionally it was like that in Tibet. But in the West", my brother said, "almost all the practitioners are lay-people. You, a lay person, have a very similar lifestyle to the people you teach. You have a household, a working position, and so when you teach in the West, Western women can look at you and think: "If she can do it and get enlightened, so of course we can do it and get enlightened too." It is beneficial for your and it is beneficial for other beings." That's what he said.
I could not say no, because he is my root lama. I took a Path and Fruit teaching from him in Benares in India. And I also took a Vajrayogini initiation in Rajpur from him, together with my husband. So you cannot say no.
Could you give us an idea of your daily schedule?
Before I married, I used to get up very early. I did my practice and finished before everybody else got up. After marriage I tried to get up around five - five thirty, and finished before I went to work. These days I try to get up around four.
After my practice I go to work between 7:30 - 8:30, and then I work for eight hours. Then I come home and cook for the kids. My kids are very nice and helpful.
Do you see any difference between lifestyles in Tibet and in the West?
Of course there is a difference. Everything is different. For example, the kitchen is different. To cook in Tibet, we needed a sheep or yakskin bellows to make the fire. Every morning we had to do that (pretends to pump the bellows). But here you turn one knob and there is fire. Of course it is different.
Do you think therefore our values are different?
I don't know. I think it is the same; I think most people are of like nature. I think this is generally true of people. But individually people have different values. Personally I appreciate it more here, because it is an easier life and it is more comfortable (she laughs). But it makes you more lazy too.
Is distraction here bigger?
Yes. Distraction is bigger here, of course.
Do you think it is more difficult to practice in the West?
That also varies according tot he individual, because it is in each one's mind. Generally, it is a little bit difficult here. But if your mind is stable, it does not matter. When I practice, my mind is sometimes very stable, sometimes my mind goes all over the place. When I have very stable times, and my kids are playing music, I cannot see any difference. Whether they play or don't, to me it is the same thing. I never have the feeling, "It is too noisy," or something like that. So when there are noises (at the moment an airplane flies over) you can turn them into a mantra like Om Mani Padme Hung. This is not difficult. But people are not stable. That's why it is so disturbing here. To retreat from noise, they go to quiet places, in the mountains, yet their minds are still very busy. You live in the mountain, but your mind goes to the town again.
How would you suggest integrating Dharma into daily life, based on your own example? Especially, how to overcome the excuse of having no time?
You have to make time. There is enough time. You work eight hours a day. Some people then say: I have no time to practice. But instead they go to a bar, sit in from of the television, go to the movies, or do other things. If you really want to practice, then you have to give up those things. It is not necessary to cut yourself off from life completely, but you must slowly eliminate distraction. If you practice all the time, then your mind becomes tired. That is not so good - you lose concentration. Then you can watch a little television, read some books (not Dharma books), you can go for a walk in the forest or on the beach, or work in the garden - you can do those sorts of things. Also, if you work in a job where you don not need to talk, you can recite mantras while you are working. At work, or when I do my house duties, I do a lot of prayers: sometimes I do mantras, sometimes I sing Tibetan songs.
Do you think it is more difficult for women to maintain their practice routine because of their traditional role in the house?
You cannot generalize. Some women, and men, live in traditional households. That does not really matter. You have to make time. I f you are not tired, then you have to take your time. But I don't understand: here, in the West, everybody says when they are about to get up, "Oh, I'm so-o-o tired." I don't know, it is really amazing. Fore example, my kids, they hang around the whole weekend, and on Monday morning, when they have to get up, they instantly say: "I am so tired." How come? They were asleep the whole night-This is really amazing. I am never tired. Before we came here, we were living on a farm. I worked in a mushroom plantation and had to pick mushrooms. We shipped 20 pound boxes up and down. Then, when I came home, I had to cook, feed the kids - at that time the children were very small, three to eight years old - and keep up with the household duties. At that time I was in my thirties.
So you think "to be tired" is a question of the mind?
I think so. I never had the thought of Ôtiredness" in my mind at all. But in my late forties I noticed I do get tired. Sometimes at work I get tired: I do no want to lift my feet onto the loom, but anyway I have to. Before my mid forties, I never felt tired. Any yet, although they are in their twenties, the kids say daily: "I am so tired!" This is truly amazing.
Why do you think it is like this?
I think it I because people say, "I am tired." Everybody says: "I am tired." Because they are saying it all the time, they get used to saying it. Then, psychologically, the mind gets used to it. That's why.
Traditionally a wife takes care of her husband's worldly responsibilities. How was it for you?
For us it was the opposite. My husband was very supportive of my practice.
Why do Westerners respond so strongly to Tibetan Buddhism? Is it just confusion?
I don't know. This is something you should know. How can I know? Maybe it's out of confusion, maybe not. Probably because it is so exciting. I notice Westerners like exciting things. So when something new comes along, then they are really excited. Real practitioners do not get overexcited. It does not work that way. You need a long time and you have to do it perfectly, not really excitingly. Something else in Western minds is that they always want something different. For example, they think Hinduism is better than Christianity, so they first become Hindus. Then, when they know Hinduism a little bit, they think, "That's enough, maybe it is not really what I am looking forÉ", so then they think Buddhism is interesting. So they keep on looking.
Why do you think is sectarianism so widespread among Westerners?
Those people have no understanding, no knowledge. They should not do that. These are people with a busy mind who do this. Busy and naughty. Sectarianism is not necessary, because all traditions have the same foundation: they all come from the Buddha. Different traditions were set up, but they all have the same meaning: to get enlightenment, to get rid of the defilements and to purify the mind of poisons. The Buddha taught the three vehicles, but the three of them talk about the same thing. Some are more detailed. Some have more methods. Vajrayana has more methods to get enlightened on an easier, quicker way. But the meaning and the focus is the same for all traditions and vehicles: to get enlightened and to get free from this sysle of suffering. So it really does not matter. Some peoples' minds are too much attached to their own tradition, and therefore say "I am Gelugpa", or "I am Sakyapa", "I am Nyingmapa", or "I am Kagyupa" very strongly.
Teacher are another case, because they have to keep up their tradition, maintain the lineage and pass it on - otherwise the lineage would die. In contrast to this, ordinary practitioners do not need to be sectarian. Especially not Westerners. Also, in Western tradition there is no need for Tibetan traditional things. Mixing is inevitable, but Western students do not need to take over Tibetan culture. Westerners have their own culture. Keep focused on meditation, that's all.
We have found that many Westerners are confused and are searching for some kind of guidance. They become involved with Buddhism and they become even more confused.
Yes, I noticed this too. I have encountered very confused Westerners involved with Buddhism. They do not have a stable basic meditation on the mind; first your mind has to be stabilized. Then you can study Mahayana, and only then you study the Vajrayana. Many people are confused because they have no basic teachings, no understanding, and no experience of meditation. They right away get empowerments and jump into Vajrayana.
In Vajrayana there are all kinds of different elements. Very simple things like the five skulls on the head. So they thing; "What is that?" First Buddhism talks about the ten nonvirtuous deeds like killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, the four verbal misdeeds and the three nonvirtues of the mind. If you should not kill, why is the deity wearing five skulls? Why is it wearing the chain of fifty bleeding heads around his neck?" These kinds of things may confuse unskilled practitioners. But the Vajrayana practitioner knows, or reads in a book, that each symbol has a certain meaning. Bone ornaments are symbols for impermanence.
Practitioners, who know some Hinduism and come into Buddhism, may ask: "Why is Shiva underneath their deities?" In Buddhism this has another meaning. It symbolizes ignorance, desire. But people cannot see that. Those who do not know about it may become confused.
Often people, who have never had contact with Buddhism and to whom I never have taught, come to my place. Rarely they want to learn about meditation; instead they talk about what spiritual practice is. I often have to think about it.
So, the first thing I tell them is to go to any spiritual teach who gives talks and to listen to them. "Do no take any empowerments. Don't do anything serious, just listen. Go to Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim teachers. In Buddhism there are different traditions: Chinese, Japanese, Indian, different Tibetan traditions, whatever tradition. Some time you will find your connection, you root guru, with whom you have a teacher-student relationship.
Some then ask: "How do we find our root-guru?" Each human being has feelings, don't they? You feel something. You feel comfortable, sometimes you feel close to him or her, you feel you like him or her, however you see it. If you feel like that, then you go on receiving teachings from that person. When you feel that this teacher is ok, then you have to check is or her background. Especially if you go into Vajrayana Buddhism you first have to check if this is the right teacher or not. If after all this checking, you still think that this is the right teacher, then, after having received empowerment, you have to think of him or her as your root-guru and as Vajrdhara. When you have this connection, you have to do whatever he or she says to practice.
Then, I don't think you have to go around to different gurus and receive different empowerments. You can go to many teachers and listen to their talks, but you do not need to exercise and follow different practices. I think it is better to keep to one teacher, and to one deity. For example, if we take one rock and start to make a hole here and when we are almost through here, we change and try to make another hold at another place. If we act like this, we will never finish. That is why you have to do whatever your daily practice is, whatever deity and teacher you chose. Then there will be no confusion and it will be very easy for your mind too.
This is what I tell everybody at the beginning. So they might come back and say: "I really liked you." Then I tell them: "First you do sitting meditation. Your mind is very busy. Sit down and try to do shamatha meditation or breathing-exercise meditation for a few months." If after that they still want to go on, they can take refuge, refuge vows, and I tell them to do the ngondro preliminary practices. That's how I do it, and I keep it that way, because sometimes I thinkg that Vajrayana came to the West too soon. That's why people become so confused.
Furthermore, a lot of Vajrayana materials have been published. Some people in the West read those books, even though they do not know anything and have not had any empowerments.
Some aspects of Vajrayana and of Hinduism, like chakras, are similar. Then, people are very funny, they compare Buddhism with Hinduism (she laughs). That's also why people are confused.
Do these people have too little patience?
Well, somehow everybody is impatient. Tibetan people have not patience, and some lamas neither. They can become very angry, and some become easily very mad; some do not have patience at all.
Some lamas say that for Westerners it is better not to do retreats and instead to focus on a daily practice.
It is important to do the practice of the deities whose initiations you have received every day. Say you received the initiations of five deities, then you must do the five practices every day without cessation. Retreat means that on top of this practice you accumulate the mantras of a particular deity, three or four times a day. I guess it is easier for the mind to do retreat once in a while. Here in the West the shortest retreat is one week, but in Tibet the shortest was one month. Two things are different here: the work situation and financial conditions. Here everybody has to support himself. Nobody supports you. If both a wife and a husband are practitioners, then one does a retreat and the other supports. But otherwise, as a sing person, you first have to fix your financial situation. Then you do a retreat, and when the retreat is over the money is finished, so then you have to work again, and so forth. The situation here is really a bit difficult.
Thank you very much for sharing your precious time.
Jetsun Kushab was interviewed for Cho-Yang by Alphonso and Gabriella Freeman
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